Nov 11, 2003 Posted Nov 11, 2003 18:11 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330). There are a whole series of items that are issues: the newest wireless cards don't have source-available drivers because there's nothing to stop users from telling them to use forbidden frequencies or power levels; there are issues with patented video formats, DVD CSS, MP3, and the like. Aug 31, 2015 The OpenLDV 5 driver supports network interfaces from Echelon, and also supports compatible network interfaces available from other manufacturers. OpenLDV 5 includes integrated drivers for the following Echelon network interfaces: IzoT Router with Remote Network Interface (RNI) SmartServer and i.LON 100 Controllers with RNI.
Not quite so bad as you think
Posted Nov 11, 2003 18:00 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)In reply to: Yet Another Step Back (NonWired) by coriordan
Parent article: Yet Another Rendition of Linux (Wired)
The specific proprietary software in mind is 3D card drivers. We need to find a 3D manufacturer willing to work with Open Source again (darn nVidia for killing 3Dfx) but for now the customers require these drivers. The bottom line is that the project will produce 'Enterprise Debian', putting all of the work (except for a tiny little bit that they won't take) directly into the Debian project.
Note that I created Debian's free software policies and would hardly be opposed to them.
Bruce
(Log in to post comments)Not quite so bad as you think
Posted Nov 11, 2003 18:03 UTC (Tue) by penguinwarriors (guest, #11563) [Link]
hey bruce!do this. make it so. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not quite so bad as you think
Posted Nov 11, 2003 18:11 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
There are a whole series of items that are issues: the newest wireless cards don't have source-available drivers because there's nothing to stop users from telling them to use forbidden frequencies or power levels; there are issues with patented video formats, DVD CSS, MP3, and the like. The question is how far down the slippery slope you go.
Not quite so bad as you think
Posted Nov 11, 2003 18:29 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]
I think we can use market force to address some of these problems. The wireless card driver issue is not necessarily about what people tell you it's about. Broadcomm doesn't even release documentation of its MIPS-based CPU, and we do have Open Source drivers for some wireless cards that could be modified to operate the cards outside of their FCC type-approval, without any FCC complaint.I find the 3D card situation especially vexing. And regarding the closed video formats, I don't think I have to go there with this system.
Bruce
Not quite so bad as you think
Posted Nov 12, 2003 6:14 UTC (Wed) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link]
I'm not sure, but if the problem is, that there aren't any good 3D cards available, thatwould be open source, then isn't it possible to arrangesome OPEN HARDWARE project, that will produce a nice,powerful OPEN AND DOCUMENTED 3D card. If the distro will ship in a packaged, paper/plastic/shiny/boxed form,then it shouldn't be difficult to include the open 3D videocard into the box???? Not to mention, vendors could beattempted to start producing the harware, as all the designwork will havebeen done by then and the card will have a nice user base.I can absolutely confidently suggest two estonian highly skilled,trustworthy, companies: Artec Design(by the way, they use Debian in house) and Liewenthal Elecronics. I konow those companies because two of my friends have been working there. I have been to CeBIT2003 atHannover, Germany, and it seem's to me, that it's relly not a problem for any of the prementioned companies or almost any other elecronics company(Elcoteq?) to organize some volume production(let's say, 2000 units for a small vlume as a start, 200 000 units later?).
So, if hardware industry can't produce something, that's needed,THEY WILL HAVE COMPEDITION!!! Now, how would that be for some capitalism???
Here are some links for those, who haven't heared of free hardware projects before: http://www.opencores.org | Leon 1 CPU | F-CPU | free-IP | Free Model Foundry | http://www.freeio.org | http://opencollector.org
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 12, 2003 10:07 UTC (Wed) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]
I'm not sure, but if the problem is, that there aren't any good 3D cards available, that would be open source, then isn't it possible to arrange some OPEN HARDWARE project, that will produce a nice, powerful OPEN AND DOCUMENTED 3D card. If the distro will ship in a packaged, paper/plastic/shiny/boxed form, then it shouldn't be difficult to include the open 3D video card into the box???And then you would have to worry about HARDWARE patents in addition to software patents. The field of 3D cards is still so new that there are bound to be lots of hardware patents related to them in force. It would take serious money to license them for this hypothetical card.
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 12, 2003 16:11 UTC (Wed) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link]
I live in Europe. Well, this 3D issue is a nice example of a chillingeffect, that patents have on technology adaption and innovation.
By the way, everyone is allowed to assamble patented things for him/her-self for his or hers personal usage. Now, it's also
allowed to do reaserch for him/her-self, atleast here, in Europe, and it's also allowed to publish one's reasearch/development results. It
look's bad and risky, but couldn't there be any such workarounds,
that a Linux Distro ships with a unsoldered printed circuit board
and, separate, unsoldered chips, let's say, some high-end or special
purpose FPGA's?
Then anyone can go to a specific web-page, look up
the instructions, how to program the FPGA's and solder the thing together
by oneself(or order some soldering and 'footprint'
loading services from some local TV-repairs)?? OK, it isn't going to
be my mother, but ...an average Linux user....??? May-be.
OK, if that doesn't work, then let's dump U.$.A. and Japan
from the worlds map, but if the Europeans have brains enough to forbid software and math patents, then atleast 1/4 of the world can live with fine and open hardware. Hmm, I wish I had time for that.... looks's really intereasting project.
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 12, 2003 18:47 UTC (Wed) by hazelsct (guest, #3659) [Link]
I live in Europe. Well, this 3D issue is a nice example of a chilling effect, that patents have on technology adaption and innovation.I have to disagree. If there were not hardware patents, then whenever, say, ATI came out with a new innovation, some IBM would copy it and lower prices to destroy their business. Because of manufacturing economies of scale, it would be impossible for small firms to capitalize on innovations, and large firms with manufacturing advantages would enjoy monopsony power (single buyer, vs. monopoly = single seller) over the market for such innovations.
With software, things are quite different because anyone can 'manufacture' it with approximately zero marginal cost.
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 12, 2003 22:43 UTC (Wed) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link]
Hmm, Thanks for a great comment!! I see a point in Your text. It look's that we're stuck. But, the assumption of Your text is, that the consumers will always buy the cheaper version, right? Hmm, if that could somehow bemade false, than my assertion regarding to the patents chilling effect would
hold.
I have to think of it. So far I can only bring a real life example of
a small bakery on a street corner, that still sells cookies and grows, though
there are big bakeries in town and many cookies available from local food stores. Luckily, unlike in the U.S.A., cookies are not patentable in Europe.
The problem with that example is, that the small bakery adds value to the cookies by the environment and by providing them freshly, but in case of PCB manufacturing, I don't know, what could the small business advantages be over the giants, let's say, IBM, or SUN.
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 13, 2003 17:24 UTC (Thu) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
'I don't know, what could the small business advantages be over the giants, let's say, IBM, or SUN.'It can only be added valuable services. If you think of any -'3th'- wave, economical sector or whatever they name it(recommned Peter Drucker and Alvin Tofler books);... In the case of PCB = finished product it must be in integration, since every computer machine i can think of has many different PCBs and or different OSes,... and maintenance and support...
The theory of a System in a Chip, is a 'oast',..., because every system must have plenty of connections to the outside that cannot be directly plugable to the chip.
Microsoft is yet today a 2th Wave company, an industrial one, that has been forcing for to long people to take computers has a radio receiver, a lock-in pill, as if a Wintel = Ford T... but a single solution has proved not to be the best solution, and is going to get worst as 'MUCH SMALLER(tm)', fast and local businesses transform the IT world into a 3th wave or services paradigma!
That is why M$ NGSCB/Paladium is a major 'HARDWARE' lock-in attempt, because they know if they dont lock-in, they have to change or die!....
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 13, 2003 21:36 UTC (Thu) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link]
Well, I'm glad to have so many nice comments!!! :D Hey, but that looks's really intereasting? So, it turns out, that elecronics's could also bemanufactured locally, like cookies, and provided freshly??????
For instance, if there existed some general design of, let's say, a 3D video card, somewhere as a 'cooky recepy', which would consist of all code and
technical specifications and even files for PCB layout, then enyone
could download it as a 'coopbook recepy' and start providing the hardware
locally, freshly, WIHT THE VALUE-ADDING SERVICES??? May be one of those services could be tuning or making special client-specific modifications to the hardware just like firms, that set up varoius servers and network
systems, tweak Linux an alike.
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 12, 2003 23:13 UTC (Wed) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link]
Hey, but if the 3D cards are protected by PATENTS anyway, thenthe manufacturers can't say, that by providing detailed technical
information about it's card or even providing the VHDL-source and
schematic capture files for the proprietary chip and the card would
put them in a disadvantaged position relative to it's compeditors---the
compeditors can't manufacture or copy the stuff anyway.
But as we see, we do have problems writing new drivers for the equipment and
the develompment is chilled by the lack of information, right? So
how about a new law, that states, that if the equipment contains
patented techologies and therefore the IP is protected, then the
sufficient technical information MUST BE MADE AVAILABLE to anyone,
who want's to use the product as an enduser or designer. If anyone
is afraid, that he/she infriges some patents and hopes, that by
keeping everithing closed will help him/her to get away with it,
then it's easy to say to her/him, that nobody is allowed to infrige
patents anyway and by opening thins up, we can also enforce the
patent law more efficiently. Well, now, that's like turning the
cannons around 180 degrees!!!!
If I'm not mistaken, then one of the original purposes of patents
was to get the technology to wider use in the community and to have
the technical information, that is related to the patented invention,
available to anyone.
Any comments? What are my pitfalls thistime?
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 13, 2003 15:42 UTC (Thu) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]
Bruce has already said that this distro's users won't find downloading a video driver to make their system work acceptable (it's probably tricky without a display, apart from anything else :-), so I really don't think a system where they have to solder their video card together first and program an FPGA (in order to avoid downloading the driver) is going to fly either.I'm all in favour of open hardware (both in the specs/docs sense and the completely open designs sense). Indeed we have been building and selling open-hardware designs for a couple of years now (LART, JTAG/JTUX and Balloon). At the moment this only works for developers, who are prepared to pay the premium in exchange for getting all the specs and the rights to second-source/build their own should they need to. In PC-land video cards it seems there aren't enough people who care to make a difference yet. Indeed, if I understand correctly there there are now only 2 suppliers of 3D video cards and neither of them have free drivers then caring isn't enough - someone has to offer an alternative. There must _be_ other manufacturers of video cards, mustn't there? There always seem to be loads I have to choose between to get X to work :-) Have all the others realy gone bust/given up?
I have a practical need for a modern video card with free drivers as I need to put one in a desktop ARM (Xscale) machine. That means a free driver because I assume that all the binary drivers are only supplied for x86, never mind the other potential problems.
HW patents and open HW
Posted Nov 14, 2003 6:05 UTC (Fri) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link]
Hmm, I don't know basically anything about the company, butI found the following link: http://www.xgitech.com .It has grown out of Xabre, a company that claimed itself to be a GPU producer. I found the Xabre from the CeBIT2003, so they, or atleast their 'derivative', does seem to be alive in some kind of form.I hope so
Posted Nov 11, 2003 19:58 UTC (Tue) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]
Your statement worried me because it was an unlimited acceptance of proprietary software, video drivers were only stated as a justification.Much like Disney asking for longer copyright law for the sake of mickey mouse. The justification can be just a distraction.
A set of 'User[GNU/]Linux Free Software Guidelines' would be reasuring, even if they did permit the use of proprietary drivers when stuck.
I hope so
Posted Nov 12, 2003 2:26 UTC (Wed) by vblum (guest, #1151) [Link]
Good point, strong Guidelines would probably be the best solution.It is very desirable to have control over the software you are using (and even if it's only the
ability to compile it yourself and see which compiler flag was messed up by your vendor).
But, this is 'User Linux' for a good reason, I presume. This is a system that allows to 'use'
Linux for any type of work, as opposed to for most plus giving e.g. a sales person the right
to develop any missing functionality freely themselves.
For a while, it would have been a nightmare to 'use' Linux as your only platform, without,
e.g., Acrobat Reader available. Yes, it was not 'developable' (how ironic, given its hideous
appearance and various annoying bugs in the versions of that time - what in the world did
Adobe think they were gaining by keeping the 'viewing' part of their all-encompassing pdf
agenda hidden??) - but for 'use', the choice was this, or have trouble with pdf.
There just need to be a clear statement somewhere that sets narrow limits for the inclusion
of proprietary stuff. In the long run, nobody gains if the user gets angry with 'Linux'
because the binary 3D driver crashed again.
Not quite so bad as you think
Posted Nov 12, 2003 2:47 UTC (Wed) by zone (guest, #3633) [Link]
> We need to find a 3D manufacturer willing to work with Open Source againIf UserLinux is successful and consumers are happy with the proprietary 3D support that it provides, what motivation would a manufacturer have to create Free Software drivers? A: None. They could be confident knowing that proprietary solutions work for all their customers, with just a few fringe users 'still stuck on that Free Software wagon'.
With a truly Free Linux distribution on all those desktops, hardware manufacturers would be much more inclined to release Free drivers in order to get inroads into that market.
Including any proprietary software in a Linux distribution at this point is a quick fix solution that can only have bad consequences in the future.
As an aside, Bruce, getting the message to consumers that Free is the right thing is still more important than getting the technology to them. If they understand (as I believe they will) that Free is better than proprietary, it won't matter if it takes six months or six years, when it comes it will be something more than an alternative to Windows, it will be a social movement that will be hard if not impossible to turn around.
Not quite so bad as you think
Posted Nov 13, 2003 13:51 UTC (Thu) by mjr (guest, #6979) [Link]
We need to find a 3D manufacturer willing to work with Open Source again
Pardon me if this is obvious, but has anyone with any real cloutcontacted XGI about this? See the relevantslashdot story.
The links in the story point out that they are planning to releaseLinux drivers, but there's no information on whether they're goingto be libre. Maybe one could positively affect that. Also, anew challenger in the market needs ways to differentiate itself.
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